Joe Criscuolo, Chairman, called the meeting to order at 7:35 pm In attendance at this time:
Joe Criscuolo, Joe Dunn, Janet Phillips, Rich Bezeg, Gerard Haran, Megan Condran, Anthony Marinos, Joe Rumolo, Denis Kilduff, Paul Taguer, Richard Greene, Barbara Felice and Tom Badcock. Carol Norberg was present to take minutes. Edward Testino arrived at the meeting at 8:10 PM; Kevin Calogera visited at 8:40 PM and at 8:55 PM Mayor Cannon joined the meeting. Megan Condran and Anthony Marinos departed the meeting at 8:40 PM Absent from this meeting was Fran DiRocco, Timothy Kozlak, John Piovesan, Joe Pruiti and Harold Reck. Joe Criscuolo explains that Monday evening the council made the appointments of Richard Greene and Ed Testino, on the request of this committee, to be council representatives for the Recreation Advisory Board. Joe C. read a letter from John Piovesan explaining his absence from tonight's meeting.

APPROVAL OF FEBRUARY 2001 MINUTES

The minutes from last month's meeting did not get out in time to members due to the length, motion to postpone approval of these minutes was passed to approve them at the April meeting.

OLD BUSINESS

1. Birch Hill: Joe C. explains that based on the Committee's recommendation to Council that the EDC look at the Birch Hill property, Kevin Calogera, a member of the EDC, would like to meet with some of our members within the next 10 days to brainstorm some ideas on how we would like to see that property be developed. (For example, Good Sports, Baseball World in Fl.) Kevin mentioned to Joe C. that it would be a sizable expense for someone to develop it as strictly a recreational facility, but perhaps if offices could be in the front with parking that would be shared with a recreational facility would be a possibility.

2. Recreation Committee's Role as per Council: Joe C. passes out copies of a letter that he received today from the Council President Maher regarding the Committee's Role along with the ordinance that was created in 1990. Joe C reviews parts of the ordinance with the members, particularly Page 244.1, Sections C and D, and feels the committee's role is clear. He mentions he is glad to have the council members here to help interpret the ordinance that they passed.

Joe R: It is unclear to me what the extent of some of these activities are given the composition of the membership and given that we have no budget. Does this mean we just talk to people outside and report back. What does this mean? There is no way for me to understand what the scope of this is. Investigate could mean walk outside and talk to people, it could also mean come up with a way of doing a township wide survey.

Richard Greene: I think this committee is very important. Ultimately, the council will get involved in some of the decisions you make. The purchase of property for instance, we've passed bond ordinances for construction and reconstruction. I know you had asked for a council representative, but I thought it was so important that at the meeting Monday night that I asked if they would make it bipartisan and the council agreed and appointed me too. Which was very nice of them. I'll be glad to take back any of these questions. You have a good point. It does give you a very broad responsibility. We have to put in place some type of mechanism so that you can fulfill your responsibility and at the same time work with the council and work with the Parks and Recreation because they are, of course, the ones with the professional expertise.

Gerard: (Talks about) d. on page 244.1 work of the department. The work of the department as determined by the budget as submitted and approved and the plan as submitted that Parks and Rec. Dept., like every other department in town, has to submit a budget to the council.

Richard G: Correct.

Gerard: Is there also a plan with the budget, a plan of what they are going to do for the upcoming year.

Richard G: The department heads will make a formal presentation to the Council with their plan, goals and objectives.

Gerard: Specific to the Parks and Rec., is there a written plan put forth as to the monies that are requested. Is there an application suggested for the monies that are requested.

Richard: We are given a capital budget request which lists items and amounts, the Council asked the Dept. heads to come back with a detail analysis of exactly what they wanted and what the purpose of the items were. Its not always the case where we would get from a department a detail of how they are going to use the budget, their goals.

Gerard: When the budget is approved, do you have that information?

Tom: You have to understand the process and how government works, especially our form of government. What Richard and the rest of the council get from the Mayor, and the administration, which delivers it to the legislative end of it, which is the Council. We have ordered the department heads to submit a list of projects in detail. The Mayor gets this detail, when the Finance Director puts a sheet together, but it doesn't give the council much information. We then had to tell the department heads that they need a full detail of what that project entails so the Council had something other then number and item listing to go by. That is separate from the operating budget process.

Gerard: I guess what I'm trying to establish is that the department has a plan.

Tom: I have since I've gotten here 12 years ago, (and before that there was no plan) we have accomplished some 40+ of those projects since twelve years have gone by. But there is a priority list of acquisition and development projects, which are identified by lot and block number, by a sector of the town, by need, by statewide comprehensive outdoor recreation needs and by the needs of the town. That is part of my master list; it's been like that for 12 years. I know Engineering and the Public Works has over the years developed something similar to that. Every department has a long range plan which are the projects over a long period of time will be submitted to the Mayor and then to the council for their approval. Again they will determine the township wide priorities. Remember, we talked about having a limit on what we can bond each year. That's the dilemma of Rich and the council; which projects will be bonded each year when we submit maybe $12 Million worth of projects and only $3.5 can be bonded. It becomes a tough task for the Council. So the more information they have the better. They are in that process right now.

Richard Greene: I'd like to mention one other thing. Really is what got me to try to get on the committee and that's just what you said. I think there should be a plan so that for instance when we start talking about Birch Hill, you say to yourself, does Birch Hill fit into this plan that we have, of where we are going. The property that we are acquiring and how we are going to use that. If we have properties in mind to purchase or develop a certain way, maybe we don't have the $5 million that is the asking price for Birch Hill right now. Or maybe we do. That should be one of the main focuses of the committee.

Joe D.: Can we have a copy of the plan?

Tom: I can get a copy of how we followed the plan over the years.

Joe D: I think we should have it only for the fact that that's what you want to do and what we want to do. If I don't know what you want, then I can't help you. If we are all in this together, then we should have a copy.

Tom: That's why last time we supplied you with a copy of our recommendations to the Mayor that were the first phase of this step that went from the Mayor to the Council. Now the Council is considering it. That is my annual list that goes to them. Those are the things you need to have.

Gerard: So there is an annual plan.

Tom: There is an annual capital submission, which is our current annual plan of current capital projects. Some are in various stages of completion. We have some that we are working on now, then there are other ones that are earmarked for the future that will piggyback after these current ones are completed. This is not saying that things like Birch Hill won't come up. Things change over the course of time. You need to weigh the opportunities as they come up based on what your plan is. Obviously if you have a piece of property that you have gotten for foreclosure in the immediate vicinity, then you will not go and invest $3-4 million in a piece of property in the same vicinity unless you equate the qualities of that property as being very beneficial.

Gerard: There is a booklet that is published also, we all get a booklet of what the Parks and Recreation is doing throughout the Township. All the things that are available. All programs. We get your brochures, we get your annual report every year. What I'm thinking to myself is, if I read D right, that the recreation committee shall investigate, study and advise the department of Parks and Recreation with respect to the work of the department, then that is the clear focus point for me. The work of the department, making sure we give the right feedback. Is this particular program that Barbara Felice is instituting, is this something that we should be doing, did you get enough attendance, did we get a good cross section, is it properly priced, did we have the interest, are we serving the needs of our community, the folks in this age group, are they getting what they need from a recreation standpoint. In terms of the acquisition and establishment and improvement, there's a plan that you put out where you target monies for what we want to do with Green Acres, or how we want to go forward, or things we are looking at for acquisition. With that acquisition, I think once that has been established, it should be the job, I think from reading this, of Parks and Rec. to help advise them to how we think that property might best be used. Or to identify what the needs are of the people in the town, and give that feedback back in. I don't know if this is meant to say that I should be going out as a member of this committee and soliciting landowners or soliciting people as to the availability of their land. Is that anybody's reading? It seems to me anyway that the Recreation Committee shall investigate, study and advise the Dept. of Parks and Recreation with respect to the work of the Department. As defined by that brochure that we get, which lists all the activities that are taking place, that is the work of the department, the goals that are established on that annual basis for the capital projects, that seems reasonable to me what we are talking about. I don't know if the Council really wants us to be concentrating on going out and soliciting the acquisition of property, certainly we should be concerned with established parks, the improvement of the maintenance grounds, the way Jamie O'Kane came and told you about the situation at Central Park and it was addressed. Or John Piovesan came by and addressed the situation with the skate park, the Old Bridge Soccer League over there, etc. the feedback we've been getting that way I think is my understanding of the way the Parks and Rec. board should be operating, and has been operating.

Paul: One question regarding plans and stuff this was discussed in different meetings in past years, we hear a lot about it at Council meetings and this is Master Plan.

Tom: The master plan is basically the land use plan. It is not that you want to put a recreation center over there, it is basically the build out of the township's land whether it is industrial, commercial, recreational, wetlands, environmentally sensitive, schools. It is a plan that helps you, the township, the council build out of the township what's going to go where. Without that and zoning you will have a hodgepodge of what's going on. You have to have some plan. It is a huge plan that shows what the current and the future build out of the township is anticipated to be. Then it is zoned according to that plan.

Paul: To Richard's point earlier about the Birch Hill property, as potentially a private business, recreational type facility, but however, created or set up through the Economic Development Corp. If in the master plan, there was a property half mile away one that was in that plan as a similar type of facility, you might say wait a minute, why are we encouraging a private developer to build up on Birch Hill when we are getting ready to do something down the road. That's where I can see the value of seeing some of these planned projects. I think last year when we submitted the information to the council for what started out to be the President's Advisory Board then it became the Recreation Board, I thought some of that information was supposed to go into the Master Plan.

Tom: No, I think the Master Plan that you are talking about is a township wide plan. I think what they are referring to is basically the list of capital projects, big and small, long and short range that we developed within the last ten years that we have used as our focal point to move through and accomplish. I think that's our Master Plan in the department. When you hear Master Plan in general, it is the entire township and the build out of the entire township.

Paul: Primarily land.

Tom: It concerns land and how it will be utilized.

Paul: The Queen Yacenda, for example, should be on there.

Tom: Queen Yacenda is on there, but there are lands on there that are still the best and most useful purpose of the land would be for residential development. Obviously, if the town has any sense, you want to restrict the residential development, one of the ways you can restrict residential development is to acquire it and leave it as recreation open space. Obviously without putting houses on it. The more houses you put on it, the more you will be in a tax deficit. The more people who come in, you can never keep up with the cost of services. They will far outweigh the taxes that people are paying in. You do the formula for the number of kids and you add in the schools which is 60% of your tax bill and you can begin to understand why towns in their zoning and their Master Planning try to find ways to, which is this farmland preservation, which is another example where people can sell their rights to develop a farm. Obviously there is big money, some developer comes in and wants to pay you a lot of money to put in 200 houses. So now what they are trying to do is have them sell their rights to be ever able to develop it as houses, they will still get the money, but they'll never be able to put houses on that. All that is good for the town because it restricts the amount of homes which will again be a buffer to the tax base. Keep the tax base down rather than having more homes come in.

Joe R: Maybe we need a clarification of the term Master Plan means with regards to Parks and Recreation. I assume, Tom, you have some plan for short term, one year, five year plan. I get the sense that this master plan is where you are going for the next five years, land that you are targeting, what you are planning to put there, etc. I guess where I am leading to with this is, does this ordinance say what this committee ought to be doing, is kind of reviewing that plan and making recommendations and trying to help you along with that plan is.

Tom: No, I think what I interpret it and get an attorney to interpret it, I think it goes back to the earlier discussion about what is the function and the function is the committee isn't to recommend land or how or where, we need facilities and we are going to need X amount of fields based on our projected needs, and to do that, coming back to us, the professional and the committee, it is our job to investigate, through myself, the tax assessor, the finance director, engineering, to identify land parcels that might be suitable to provide your needs. It would not be for you to identify them and work towards that end. The key ingredient, that you just hit on Joe, is to provide to us what your present and your individual projected needs would be to take those and put that into when we do short and long term master plan on the department level for what lands we need to acquire, it helps us in that end. It helps because certain areas in the town there is land available and other areas there is not. We hear it all the time why we don't develop a park in Laurence Harbor. One reason is that there is not a good available land there. You have to go where the land is most suitable and useable. Build your recreation program around what the needs are where you can find suitable lands for the right price.

Joe R: I agree. I don't think anyone here is going out looking for land acquisitions. The thing I definitely agree with is if we understand what we think the needs are, what they are going to be over the next couple of years we can probably help define use for that.

Tom: Absolutely. We talked about this Queen Yacenda thing, and when you look at this parcel, that's a future large park. It has 111 useable acres, we obviously don't want to go in and start building stuff. I don't want to base it on the statewide comprehensive plan, I want to base it on the real needs are in this town. The only way to get that is through you people who represent your areas. That comes back, and we formulate a whole plan, that you can help us with formulating the plan by giving us the information, we'll do the work part of it and put it together for you people to review, and that then can be presented to the council, so they can make a real good determination of the best use of the tax dollars to spend to develop the facilities that the people in this town are going to need. There are other things that happen too. Sometimes a land parcel comes up and we can get it for a good price, then we'll grab it. You are always looking to get land for many reasons. For future investment for recreation development, for open space, to protect against residential development. That's why our councilmen here pushed this open space tax which is a wonderful thing because it augments our Green Acres Program and allows us to hold on to some of this land. To develop it properly, we need the input from the people in the places you represent to make sure that when we do it, we are doing it for the current need and the projected future needs.

Joe R: I think we are in total agreement here. Again, it comes back to what is the scope of investigation study. Again, we just walk outside and talk to people or is it something more than that? I would be very comfortable if I had some clarification of that.

Paul: I know we were talking about reaching out to the tax base. I think my first year on the committee, which is about four years ago, when there was that somewhat detailed questionnaire that went out to all of the taxpayers in the township, it a fold out thing with about 15-20 different uses of the land and talked about things like golf courses and aquatic parks, etc. That information I'm sure is still available. That is a controlled, investigative way of going out to everyone in the township.

Joe C: I'd like to recognize that Councilman Testino just arrived. Thank you for agreeing for join the committee. I'd like for him to at least take a look at that ordinance on page 244.1, D and give us his interpretation of it. Councilman Greene also had some questions on it. I heard a couple of good things that I don't want to lose sight of. I think its important not only for old members of the committee and new members, and student members who are new every year. Joe R. brought up a good point. He said is there a document that has this recreation master plan that he could put his hands on and possibly read, or take a look at.

Tom: The master plan is in Sam Rizzo's office that shows the recreation open space master plan - the land area that they want to develop.

Joe C: It is a land master plan.

Joe D: I was referring to what you (Tom) were saying, when you came in twelve years ago and you had a bunch of goals and objectives that you wanted to accomplish. You got 40 of them done. I want to know what are those goals and objectives so we can...

Tom: You are looking at them, they are right in your booklet.

Joe D: This is it for this year.

Tom: No, there are other land acquisitions that we are targeting that are still pending for the future. Some may change, some may develop. You are not going to develop three or four parks at once, you will develop them as you go based on the needs of the community. The biggest point now is to secure land. That's why you can always develop the land but you can't always get the land. Our emphasis right now is to acquire land. Which we have targeted a few land masses that we are trying to acquire. That is one thing I have to compliment the council for putting in the open space tax because this is something besides our Green Acres money, we've gotten millions of dollars, to try and hold on to these tracts of land for all the reasons we mentioned earlier.

Joe C: If I had something from five years ago when I started on this committee, I know you have given it to us Tom, and I'm negligent of that...

Tom: I can give you everyone back since I've come into this place if you'd like to get a feel ...

Joe C: I used to keep a thick binder and carry it around that had all the minutes and everything, and I used to keep all these things in it. I wish I still had it. If we had one focus place that had the land master plan, as you said it is in Sam Rizzo's office, your master plan, I know you have a lot of great things on your mind, with Queen Yacenda and golf course, etc. If we had this in front of us, and then we get this report from you and we put it in the binder and somebody that is on this committee for four or five years, their binder would be thick. Then when someone new comes on, we can show them what had been done so far, so they have the history and they would also have what's on Tom's mind. These people come in cold.

Tom: I'll pull a couple of my prior lists of acquisition development projects to give everybody so they can at least get a feel for the history. Joe is right, there are people that haven't been here that long to see that continuity.

Joe D.: One more question. This is a short range plan idea.

Tom: No, not really. They are not just one year projects. They will take more than one-year to accomplish. That is just the funding to front money for projects. Some of those projects will take up to six years to finish. For example, the golf course.

Joe C: We have this vision, and we are all marching towards this vision and we are all in agreement that it is the right thing to do, we've analyzed it as in the ordinance, we are all in agreement and our goal is really to move towards that golf course. If we have that on paper in front of us and we get these sheets now yearly, Tom, we could say we are moving towards our goal. We would have a working history or where we've been and where we are going. I'd like to have a better understanding of what our vision is and all agree to that vision. If we are all on the same page and all on the committee is in agreement with that, we can all be excited about being on this committee.

Tom: When you go back and look at this list from years ago, you will see it wasn't that difficult in the beginning because we needed everything. Now as we accomplish more and more, we are fine tuning a little bit, so we don't build repetitive things, so we are using the tax dollar wisely.

Joe C: I just think to seven years ago when we really started to go in this town. If you take a look at Geick Park, you had that in your mind 3-4 years prior. If that was all written down, that's a great story.

Tom: Thank God it happened four years before when Russ Azzarello got the land. If Russ didn't negotiate the land, that thing could all be houses right now. I only wish that some of the development surrounding that whole quadrant could have been more parkland. We tried to do the best we can. You live over there, you know how that whole area is exploding.

Joe C: It's a fantastic park, it's a showcase park.

Tom: Now we are faced with tighter money, and its part of our rationale with this golf course idea is because we know the money it will make will fund a lot of these things that you will want to see done in the years to come rather than having to go to the taxpayers. There is a method to our madness in trying to do this. It's not just to create a good facility, its also to create a revenue stream.

Joe C: What I think I heard is that we would like to have a recreation master plan that maybe includes the park stuff. And if we can put the last several years of these lists in a binder, I'd like to call it the Recreation Strategic Plan: How we are going to move forward in the next 7-10 years.

Gerard: How far back do you think we should go?

Joe C: At least two years.

Tom: I could go back to 1990.
End of Tape 1 Side A
Gerard: Why two year?

Joe C: When you are starting out a plan...

Tom: I know in the time before that there wasn't a real capital acquisition development plan. It has progressed in the last ten to twelve years in all areas, in all the departments. A lot of that is through the requests of the mayors and councils in trying to compile information. In the last ten years in every area you are going to find more detailed game plan for the present and the future.

Joe R: I think we can trust Tom to come up a starting point. If we need more information, we can ask for more.

Joe C: Good. I think it would be worthwhile for everyone to have that.

Paul: I am getting real anxious for this, if these are like the one pages which are the recreation capital requests each year, it would be interesting to look back say, however Tom goes, to say look, here are these four items that are here, then they skipped a year, then they came back again, and eight years we still haven't done it, there may no longer be a need.

Tom: I think you can see by looking at a ten-year plan what has been accomplished and in what time frame. I think it will give you a better understanding. I don't think you can grasp, if you look at a hundred acre park that needs to be developed, it will take four or six phases to develop it. It is not going to happen in 4-6 years. It may happen in 10-15 years. It's a lot of time, planning and money to do it.

Joe C: And what you just said is what I'd like to see. If we know Queen Yacenda is going to take ten years, we should at least outline what we'd like to have in each of those years. And some of those things in year two might happen in year three, four or five. Or maybe tight money comes along and you say, this is not going to happen at all. But at least we'd have a plan of where we are going. I'd like to see that.

Tom: That's where everybody in here comes in, as far as what the current needs are. Those needs may have to be tweaked, but at least you have a starting point.

Joe C: It's going to be a living document that I think this committee and the Recreation Dept. will work together to march towards.

Ed Testino: I just want to say thank you for inviting the council members here. I think it makes for better communication. Not looking at the ordinance, I always saw this as an organization tool that would filter up to the council. In other words, the plan that you develop can come to the council and we would adopt it at some point and try to follow it. As an outline of either how we will do capital, on other things, like year-to-year budgeting items. That's where I think the words investigate and study have a little more meaning. Tom does a lot of the work, presents it to you and presents it to us, and we kind of don't see all the work that you are doing. It is important for us to know that you had the input and this is what the community wants because after all we answer to the goal. That's an important instrument regardless of what the ordinance says, for me it would be helpful to know that you made this plan and your are adjusting it as you go along. Because you saw something happen in the community and now it also says programs. So I know there is this big lacrosse thing happening in the township and if somebody says hey, yeah its big enough to have a recreational league and we got people to organize it, and now you need a little seed money, hopefully this would come from this committee. This is a program we think you should start, Tom thinks it could be done this way, here's how much money we think you should allocate to seed it. That's an area that I would need to know. Now we know all our main sports are big, and a lot of times we need something a little different. Case in point now is the mat building we are looking at. That could be used in more than one venue, more than one sport. Principally we are looking at cheerleading for it. There will be a little debate over where that will be placed. Where it can be placed, town center, down in Veteran's park. I want the rest of the council to know you viewed what the pros and cons are and why you want to put it there because as a council member I am hearing from all kinds of people saying where they want it. I am getting tugged at two different arms, and if you guys make that decision, it makes my life a lot easier because I know you made a rational decision for the kids, as opposed to one group over another group. That's where I think if you see something coming along, and you decide you want to investigate that, I think you have this ordinance as an authority to do that and make a recommendation through Tom through the council to do something. That's really what the power of the committee is. Is to put those recommendations in front of the council in written form and five year plan, two year plan, whatever you are talking about, but I don't think its just capital. Tom is doing a great job with planning it out.
Gerard: Last year we tried to do exactly what you are saying with regard to the monies that would be allocated to certain groups going to so called national competitions. That those applications coming from the community should go to this group right here. Be reviewed by us on merit and then the recommendation that we decided would be put to the council. We went ahead with that, those types of things. Not at all to do with long term or long range capital, to try and depoliticize that particular process. What happened with that Paul?

Paul: I think it was eight Yes and one No. And the advisory's recommendation was No.
Dennis: He's talking about when the high school marching band and choir came looking for money. The council actually reached out to Tom to ask the advisory board's opinion and Tom advised that the advisory board said it didn't meet the criteria of the ordinance.

Ed Testino: The thought of the council was that the money was still there and it was going to lapse into another budget year, and we should spend and it and we should amend the ordinance or our resolution before we got there again. Because what happens is we have cheerleaders going to competition, there are other council members who have favorite items, and they send their people down to make requests and they say hey, we have money left in the budget, why not spend it. So if we don't spend it lapses into the next year's surplus, what good does that do anybody? That's why that decision came about.

Gerard: I recognize that, but I'm just saying here is a particular case in point where this committee was asked by the council to investigate and to study and to advise, and we took it very seriously. We tried as so many of the people that are here are involved in all sorts of different sports in town, and some of them at a very competitive level.

Ed Testino: I would say that 90% of the time we follow the recommendation of this committee. There is going to be times that we disagree on things. I disagree with Tom all the time, sometimes he gets mad at me, sometimes I get mad at him. The kids get the benefit of both.

Gerard: I am talking about the usefulness of this, I think we kind of addressed the very letter of this thing in terms of investigating, studying and advising and came back with something that was...

Joe C: We talked about this in a couple of meetings. We can advise Tom of something that we would like. Tom doesn't necessarily have to do it. We can advise the council of something that we would like. We advised the council of the skate park fees. I read in the paper some of them liked it, some of them didn't. I think we are set for once again to make a recommendation and advise, and Tom wants to follow-up on it, fine. But if he doesn't want to follow-up on it, we also have an obligation here to tell the council our feelings. We tell them. Now if Tom does agree with this, that's helpful because he will go to the council and tell them we are all in agreement. Tom might go with something that he wants to do to the Council and the Council...

Gerard: So the council wasn't advised of what the committee did last year?

Ed Testino: The council was advised.

Joe C: The council was advised but they chose to do something else. I am just saying, we advise them. They can then go along and do whatever they feel.

Paul: For whatever its worth, Ed, Rich, if there is any way of making some of those requests, and I have actually been involved in coming before the council to request money. Sometimes time is a big factor. But if when then sports organization issue comes forward asking for the money, I would hope that you would send them right here.

Ed Testino: We try to. We tell them that the mechanism is to start with Tom.

Tom: I think what happens is that they come there in the public arena and try to put the council on the spot.

Ed Testino: And then they claim we are biased against non-sport activities for children. You are in a political bind. There aren't the same type of competitions for bands as they are for sports. When we made that decision, we asked that the committee consider how we handle things that are non-sport competitive. Apparently there are these things, whether it be drama or band, that they are invitational things as opposed to competition. There is a need to have that re-looked at and see how we are going to handle those requests. We get people like George Kohler who asks why we are focusing so much on sports when there are other things kids can do. You are faced with that and the money dropping in the surplus, then you say give it to him. You are stuck there with a whole group of kids who don't access some of our programs that you guys are mainly focused on. I agree with you. For me it was not a tough call to say yes, let the kids have the money, but it was a tough call to have to look the other way on your recommendation.

Joe C: I think its important that when we make a recommendation is that we get a written response from the Council on why the recommendation wasn't the way we take it. I think it would help us understand why.

Ed T: Hopefully, we will be here to explain.

Joe C: That's one of the reasons why we wanted you on the committee. So that when we did come along and say its 8 to 1, its not a matter of writing a memo, it's Mr. Green and Mr. Testino know this. So that when they go back to the Council meetings, they can say what we recommend. And if they don't agree, at least they can at least explain why they don't want to follow our recommendation. Maybe we can change the process later on.
Richard Greene: I think you are right. You can help me on the other side when you make a recommendation, unless I miss something Tom. On the skate park fee, all I knew was that the recreation advisory board said OK. It would help me if I knew why. We are getting hit by all different people saying it is wrong, if I am in favor or it and I want to support the advisory board, I want to know why, what was it that got you to vote for it.

Joe C: That's why we are glad you are here and why we wanted you here.

Ed Testino: Let's talk a little bit more about the skate park thing. I am not in the community as much as some of you are, but when I go down to the skate park, the kids I talk to don't want to pay a fee. They want to get time on the court. I told Tom this is how to get our kids more time on the court. Then you tell them they need to pay a fee and they don't want to do that. The kids and families I spoke to don't think putting a fee in will be a good thing. Who knows how it will work out. The problem is we didn't start off with a fee, now we have people using it for free, and now we are going to charge. The ice rink started, we always charge.

Tom: If we don't do it, then we are going to have to hustle because I know I can see a problem coming. There is two schools of thought, either reactive or proactive. I think if we don't have a fee we will need to react to an uncomfortable situation. There is no guarantee if we have a fee to some degree we may not have the same situation, but the situation that is brewing is that because there is very few of these parks around and ours happens to be a good one, and the word is out, and when we get into the situation where the schools are out and they are coming in droves and only 50 kids can safely fit into that park, the first 50 to show up at that park are going to get a colored laminated card, in an hour you ring a bell and they get out and the next 50 get in. The problem is going to be when there is 150 kids there and out of those 150, just lets say the first 40 are nonresidents, we have no right or responsibility to remove them and put them at the end of the line. They have to go in. What I'm afraid may happen would be those people that are going to be your constituents and the constituents of Mr. Greene and Mr. Testino and some of the other council, that's when they are going to get angry about not getting into the park and will reconsider about paying a fee and get some of the other people out. There is two different ways to look at it. Whatever the council's wishes are, we made our recommendation because we think it may ward off some trouble. We'll react to it either way. I am nervous about what will happen if we don't set a fee.

Joe C: In three weeks, you will have spring break. What are you going to do?

Tom: We will probably have a problem. It will be a good test. I've talked to Ed about this too. He is in a different position then I am because he's up there. He's representing the people. I don't know. We've all been athletes in our own right. I skateboarded too when I was a kid. Its all relative to the economy. I have a problem when I see that Barbara has our program fees, our arena fees, which are good standard fees and are not outrageous. They are tailored for the residents, especially for our young kids to be in it at a reasonable fee, this to me for an annual fee is a reasonable fee. You are not talking about gouging a fee. This is for a year, over 2,000 hours a year that park is open. Some of these kids are going to use it 500-700 hours a year. Then the other thing when you look at the sport itself. I am sensitive to what Eddie's saying that you don't want to keep adding fees, but these kids are on $150 skateboards and $450 BMX bikes. I have a problem latching on to the $25 fee if the kid can afford a $450 BMX bike, I don't think he'll have a problem with a $25 annual fee.

Gerard: Is there any other way to restrict out of towners? Legally?

Tom: No, there isn't. You cannot restrict them by the time you allow them in the park. The only way is to have a resident and nonresident fee like they do at municipal golf courses. By law you can charge up to double for a nonresident.

Gerard: The Parks and Recreation has always had a scholarship program.

Tom: We've had for Camp Robin, we've had for Barbara's classes. We would never turn a child away if a child was economically deprived. We don't go and do a big investigation. We just get enough information. We want every resident kid who wants to skate to be able to skate. I don't know how much a concern this will be because you have to have the equipment which is expensive. You will have to put in an investment just to use that park.

Ed Testino: Another example of the public arena that you are talking about. We have people coming down to the council saying we are charging to use parks. That thing is hard on us. Not everyone here heard your explanation tonight. It took a long time to get it out. I have people pounding on the podium saying that we are charging to use the public parks.

Paul: We are not charging to use the park, we would be charging to use a facility.

Tom: They can say the same thing about the ice arena too.

Ed Testino: The problem is that we didn't sell it that way. When we first put it in, people knew they were going to pay.

Paul: In my opinion on this, and I have kind of thought this through, and I asked a lot of folks who use it, residents, people that I am familiar with. It seems every day in the newspaper there is an article about a skate park, whether its in East Brunswick, Jamesburg, Monroe, it's the hottest thing right now. Kids have been quoted as not having a problem with the fee. That's relative to the Old Bridge fee, where they were saying that there alternative is if they want to go on the right equipment they go to the skate parks and pay. I think the majority of kids will say they don't want to pay because they don't want to pay for anything. The equipment that is in there is very specialized. It's locked up. Not that we are looking to offset some of the costs that are going to come with this park, but this is not like a basketball court or a soccer field. This is going to need somebody at that park. There is expenses generated. Let's not kid ourselves. If we built something, do the taxpayers know it will be a $50,000 expense every year? I don't think so.

Joe C: We spent $100,000 on the equipment. We are spending $40,000 on the special police officers...

Gerard: $40,000 for one special, what about when 200 kids show up, you'll need more cops.
Tom: The reason the special is there is that he is the one will call when there is a problem. He will call the main guys. They will be wearing their tires out going to that park.

Gerard: In July and August when you have a lot of kids from all the neighboring towns, and you have 50 kids in at a time, what are the other 200 going to be doing?

Ed Testino: We have actually been saving money in the town on vandalism since the skate park was opened.

Gerard: Absolutely, because there's usage. The park's being used.

Joe C: At least we'll have a spot to put our mobile police unit.

Ed Testino: Tom, maybe you should look into a session for bikes vs. other things. The bikes are little more tougher when they run into other kids. Maybe there should be a dedicated time for just bikes. Maybe this is something that this committee can recommend.

Tom: We can't do that until we assess it over a period of time. This is something I said when we were planning to put this thing in. There are answers we will not have until we go through a whole season. I don't know the percentage yet. We won't know until we start taking an assessment of what's going in there every day; the percentage of bikes and boards and blades.

Ed T.: When the bikes go in there they squeeze everyone else out. If there is one or two in there it doesn't make a difference, but when you get five and up in there the other kids have to move over to the side.

Tom: These are all things that a part of what we call growing pains that we have to monitor. There is going to have to be some concessions made because of the size of the numbers. The park was designed to be able to accommodate all three venues at one time. But there is a limit on the numbers. What Eddie is saying has a lot of merit. When you get bigger kids on bigger bikes, and younger kids on skateboards and blades, there is the intimidation factor too. That has to be taken into consideration. Until we start charting the numbers, it's going to be hard to know. The only thing that we do know is that once the summer comes, we are going to see a dramatic increase in the usage of the skate park as according to other places that have skate parks in the country. Just like you do at golf courses and other types of sports that are season specific. I am not looking forward to that part of it. I think skateboarding is here to stay; it is becoming bigger with the X games. It's not going to be fun to monitor this.

Joe C: Let's move on. One recommendation that we'll pass back to Rich and Ed is that we still firmly believe that the numbers and the amount of the fees that we passed on to you from the last meeting is the right way to go. I would also ask Tom in two weeks when kids will be out of school for public and parochial schools, I would like for you to send someone down there and take a look at this. Maybe next meeting we can have a report on what occurred in those two weeks time period. I will make it a point to visit the park in that time period because I have some kids in public and some in catholic school. I'll make it a point to go down there and I'll ask people on this committee to do the same. Just stop for 5-10 minutes and make some observations. I think that is part of our investigating and studying as it says in this ordinance.

Joe R: The original objective of doing this was control. This is numbers control and trying to keep this residential park. I haven't heard of one alternative to this. I don't think there is one quite frankly. I think we are going to be hard pressed to do anything but this. I understand that it was opened up as free, but there is no other control mechanism.

Gerard: Tom, what if from 7am - 9 am the park was open to nonresidents.

Tom: We can't do it. We can't discriminate.

Gerard: So the fee mechanism is the only mechanism that they allow you to discriminate with.

Ed Testino: Do you have any information on what the user base is. Do you know how many out of towners are coming in?

Tom: The only way we are going to know is if they sign up.

Ed: What if you take a survey down there. There is a guy there.

Tom: You have a special there who is trying to enforce the rules. I am going to have to hire a kid anyway to do these things that we are talking about. The special is there to enforce the policy and ordinance; they are not there to do a count. I agree that's information that we need to know.

Mayor Cannon enters the meeting at 8:55 PM

Tom: We will either get one or two kids with clickers and we'll get a resident and nonresident count. We'll have a board count and a bike count. At least that will provide more information. It will only scratch the surface but it will give us an indication of what we can expect two months down the road when school gets out for summer. It will help us prepare for that. That is when all hell will break loose.

Joe C: Even one thing that some people had mentioned when they saw the council leaning towards not having a fee, people pay a fee to pay baseball or pretty much anything kind of to offset the cost. You're getting a T-shirt, you're getting umpires. These people are also getting a service from the town itself. The service is that we built a nice park, we want to keep it in an orderly fashion, we want to keep it safe. I would also like to keep a record of what kind of accidents occurred. We have invested a fair amount of money in this, we are also now investing another $40,000 a year for special cops. That's why I have no problem in asking for the fee.

Joe D: A couple of things as far as parks. First, I'd like to look at park usage. Look at Cheesequake. It's a state park but that thing is closed in the summer. You can't get in there for anything. Basically everyone from out of town comes. And there is a fee. Second, What is the council member's initial reaction to the fees? Maybe get a little feel for what you feel tonight. Third, do you guys know that one of the pieces of equipment is broken and not being used.

Tom: Of course we know, its being fixed. The council knows too.

Joe D.: But we don't know.

Tom: You didn't know before tonight. You are not going to know officially until tonight. I am not going to send you a letter. We fix a lot of things during the day. It is scheduled to be fixed, it needs to dry out first.

Joe D.: It is obvious you want to get that fixed before the kids are out of school.

Tom: The guy was down from Hot Rails to see it and make the assessment and they will do it at their own cost.

Joe D: The snow sat on top of it and got waterlogged. What is the council's feelings about the fees?

Richard Greene: I agree with what Joe said. From what I understand it has to be restricted. It seems to me unless someone comes up with another idea, it is the only way you can manage it. I am a little frustrated over some of the excuses some of the people come up with. I can go anywhere and I can play basketball if I want Well, they can't. A lot of place you need a permit. That's how the courts are regulated. This is a Park, you are restricting usage Its not a park, to me it is a facility in a park. I support your recommendation.

Paul: This might not be a good idea, but I will throw it out anyway and then we can move on.
A way possibly of softening the fee to the park and it wasn't a fee when it first opened up maybe like 8 am - 10 am Monday thru Friday there is no fee. You don't look for the permits. We asked about the kid who wants to use the equipment but doesn't know if they like it, have an open session. Make it very early in the morning so that family that says my kid can't even try the equipment, I don't want to buy the permit because I don't know if he'll like it.

Joe D: Wait a minute. If they already laid out money for the equipment, the $25 is not going to stop them.

Paul: I agree. But maybe Mom and Dad are upset about laying out $200 for equipment, they might not want to throw in another $25.

Ed Testino: I've seen some kids down there with not-so-hot equipment to tell you the truth.

Paul: They probably borrow a lot too, I would imagine.

Dennis: You can go down to Consignment Sports in Howell and buy used roller blades. That's where I get my hockey stuff for my kids.

Gerard: Let's have it known about the scholarship program.

Ed Testino: We were poor when we were little and my mom would never have gone down and ask for a scholarship. She would never have done it. We would never have paid the fee. That's why I feel so bad about it. I happen to be one of the biggest dissidents about the fee. I understand, and if you can prove to me that there is a problem with out-of-towners other than the one group that I saw there one time, most of the usage isn't from in-town, I see a lot of kids from our town in there. A lot. I'm not saying that you guys aren't right.

Joe C: Even for the little leagues. We know that there's kids out there in the apartments and we talk to them. They tell me they do want to play baseball, but they don't have the money. And we let them know they don't have to give us money and we even will give them a glove. All they have to do is show up. These people need to know that. I wish I can get more of those kids from the apartments. I see them hanging out in front of K-Mart. And I see the squad cars there having to push them along because they are hanging out. I go down and ask the kids if they want to play. I give them my number and tell them to call me. I ask kids in the league if they want to donate their old gloves. I can ask Williamsport and ask for urban development and explain I need baseball gloves. All Tom would have to do is call the right people and we could get them equipment.

Ed Testino: But you guys are organized. You have teams, you have outreach.

Joe D: When I was down there I brought it up to the special, who was a woman by the way. We keep referring to the specials as men. I asked her about charging. She says she was totally against it. She said there were kids out there that cannot afford it. It's not right to exclude these kids. I explained the scholarship and she said in that case then there would be no problem. She would be able to talk to them and send them to the recreation dept. There is a way to get the information out to them. The specials can be our go between.

Tom: There will be signage up there and in the sign obviously there will be information about the scholarships. All this wouldn't happen as soon as the council passes the ordinance, there will be a grace period. It will take time.

Gerard: Are we in the state where we are going to wait for the data that is collected over the spring breaks.

Tom: That is up to the Council. I made my recommendation, I stand by what I said. They don't have to listen to me.

Joe C: Mr. Greene and Mr. Testino now have the input straight from the horse's mouth.

Gerard: But he doesn't have the studies he's looking for.

Ed Testino: I can be swayed but I'm still not certain.

Dennis: I've talked to kids there. I've talked to kids from football and wrestling that I know and the kids complain of out of towners all the time, especially on the weekends. I have talked to parents and they have no problem paying a family fee of $25 if they have four kids. They didn't like the idea of sessions.

Ed Testino: I am open to being persuaded. If you don't come down and fight the battle with us, we are stuck with people who are saying we are making people pay for the park. You must come down and explain it because Tom is viewed as an administrator.

Joe C: But Barbara charges for her programs. There is a service that we provide that is a very valuable service.

Ed Testino: We are in a public arena now, Joe.

Joe C: What's to stop somebody from coming in and expecting programs to be free.

Mayor: It was never proposed as a fee-based program, I know we advertised it as a free thing, but it is sensitive. Just one thing that is a little off the subject, what I'm hearing is that part of the conflict is not only the out-of-towners, but also the conflict between the bikes and the skateboards. I don't know how you deal with that.

Joe C: I am fearful we are going to get to the point where Barbara is going to schedule sessions in the database and the kid is going to have to sign up for Tues. and Thurs. from ten till noon for skateboarding and she is going to collect $15 a clip. Because if it is this popular, we are going to have to go that route just like you have for ice skating lessons. Think about it. Only allow people to sign up for one session each. Then people will be complaining. If every one of those sessions are full, then we could say this is the only way I can keep those children safe. We charge fees for them to go to gymnastics, etc. They are all held in public facilities and parks. What's the difference? It's a skate park. Yes, I understand maybe it was advertised as a free skate park. But just as we talked about, things changed

Barbara F: There was time when programming was free as well.

Tom: Another thing we never envisioned until we went down there with Alayne, many times, two weeks before the park was opened, and I told you all this, that before the park was even opened there was police tape up, and there were 60-70 kids in there that climbed the fence. What's worse is that there were four or five parents outside the fence that helped their kids over the fence. The point I'm trying to make is that when we built this thing, we also didn't envision fees, but we also didn't envision that we would have to have a special down there at $40,000 for the year in order to protect the kids from hurting each other.

Gerard states that all the kids that had helped plan the park, we knew from them how popular the sport is, especially for kids 13 - 18.

Dennis: A lot of those kids say they pay to go skateboarding anyway.

Mayor Cannon mentions that there was supposed to be a real professional skate park at Birch Hill through a private developer who was going to charge. Gerard mentions that he heard another one was supposed to be built in East Brunswick. Tom states that he met with the man who wanted to build in Birch Hill with Jonathan Heilbrunn, his lawyer, and it wasn't as good as our park. Tom says that the next municipal skate park is in Freehold, but that it is small.

Paul: If I may make a recommendation and I will volunteer to...

End of Tape 1 Side B.

Paul (continued): ...draft a letter to council from the advisory board and one of us to go before the council in open session and read the letter. Specifically mention the fee.
Joe C: Tom actually did that.

Tom: What Paul means and what Eddie's saying is true. When they are up on the spot, when they have to vote, if you as a chairperson or anyone here went and read that letter, it would take a little heat off Ed.

Joe C. states that we have two people here representing the high school who have no problem with the fee. He didn't think that anybody expressed any negative concerns about having a fee. He asks if anyone on the committee is against having a fee.

Gerard: As long as the scholarship program stays in effect.

Joe C: So we have Paul willing to go to the council meeting and use this letter that Tom has drafted on our behalf with the knowledge that there is unanimous approval from this committee for a fee for the skate park. If that is what the council representatives would like for us to do, we could vote on it and let Paul do that. I'm in favor.

Members talk amongst themselves and believe they should vote on it.

Ed Testino: I would like to hear what your comments are on Paul's suggestion on having an open session once in a while down there.

Tom: We could try to do that Ed. What I think will happen, is you are going to have some crowd there during those free times.

Ed Testino says that it is done on ski mountains where you can ski for an hour for free, Tom mentions that the difference with the skate park is that it is an enclosed place, not as open and large as ski mountain.

Joe C: Let's proceed. I like the idea what Joe D. said about the officer down there. We also have the officers in the school now that we could also be using as an reach out program. We can also ask Billy if we could tap into the cops in the schools and to let us know when a kid is in trouble, maybe we can help him by giving him a scholarship and gearing him to the park. We can capitalize on that as well. I'm still in favor of a fee; I'd like to take a vote on who's in favor.

Members vote and everyone agrees on charging a fee.

Gerard: I think that the language of the letter that Paul is going to present, I believe we should review that.

Joe C: No, we can't review everything.

Gerard: Excuse me. My opinion, I believe that we should draft a letter from the committee saying that we should all be in agreement that fees should be charged, but there's a number of different ways you can go. Some people like the idea of a free session, I would like to see the language of the letter that Paul is going to present on our behalf. If you don't want to see it, that's fine with me. I would like to see it.

Joe C: OK, we'll create a sub committee on the letter that's going to go to the council. Who would like to be on that subcommittee? These would be the people who would be responsible for reviewing this letter. Paul has volunteered to chair this.

Paul: Did I say that?

Joe C: Well, you said you'd go to the council.

Paul: Absolutely. Let me in fairness to Gerard, because we went down this road and it caused some divisions on this particular board as far as the feeling of the board going out and some sort of written correspondence and not everyone not having the benefit to review it. I would be more than happy to take the first shot and draft the letter. I believe I have everyone's e-mail. If not, give me an alternative.

Gerard: I would be more than happy to help you draft it and see to it that each and every member gets a copy of it.

Joe C: I just don't want everything we do to get hung up in review.

Gerard: Everything that we do as a committee, if we are going to write it and if we are going to present it on behalf of the committee, I want to make certain that the committee is in agreement and not some small little ad-hoc group. If you propose or represent yourself as representing this committee, then I want to make certain that we are all on the same page. I don't believe there is anything wrong with that. If we are going to make a public statement on behalf of the committee, I think it's a good idea that the committee should know what the public statement is before its made. It makes sense to me, Joe.

Joe R: Can I make a recommendation? I think that is a more than reasonable request. I think also, though, Joe's point is a good one. We can't be hung up on this thing forever. Let's set a date when we have a deadline, let's get together sometime next week. You can't do that by e-mail. There's too many people.

Paul: I think when we sent stuff out before, I think it was Joe's e-mail that said if I do not get replies, questions, comments, changes, I will move letter forward. Hearing none, he moved that letter forward.

Dennis: You are talking about John's letter.

Paul: Yes, John Piovesan's letter.

Joe C: The letter you are in reference to was the letter I sent to the Board of Education regarding the soccer fields that I asked for comments on. I sent it out via e-mail.

Paul: I never got it.

Joe C: I sent it out with the e-mail list that I had.

Joe R: See, it doesn't work.

Paul: It was the John Piovesan letter from the task force last year that got everyone up in arms.

Joe C: That nobody got.

Joe R: Well, wait a minute. That didn't work because that went out before there was a final review by everyone. That was exactly the problem. The issue we have to deal with is that sending it back and forth for comments is fine, but unless everybody sees the final copy at the same time and votes on it, there is no other way to vote on it.

(Everyone discusses when Easter break will be over for both public and parochial schools)

Paul: So we have second reading is the ninth? Is that going to be general comments?

Ed T: When is the Easter break over Tom? I'd like to table it till after Easter break in order to have more information. If we do it April 23rd, will you have someone there and you'll have the information back? That would give you time to get the data back. If you tell me you had a week in there with a hundred kids, 70 of them were out of towners, there is no doubt people will buy us putting a fee in. Those kind of numbers speak loud at the meeting. You'd sell me.

Paul: According to my recollection, the out of towners was not the only objective for doing this. It was the control point that Joe brought up before. Even our own kids, if they come in those big numbers, it is out of control. So if they are serious about the sport, and if they want to go in there and spend time on the equipment, then they'll drop $25 and get a card. If they are in there just with time to kill, then they are disrupting those kids in there that really want to use the equipment. It shows a commitment on their part.

Gerard: There is no one saying you can't skate in the rest of the park.

Ed Testino: Can I speak on that point. I think we should have a pass or something in that park, I was thinking that if we do put a fee in and it is still overused, perhaps we can put more tar down and paint a circle on the ground and have low cost skating area. You know how they do in California, they have the wavy paths and general area. We should investigate that.

Tom: We can do that. From my own experience with in-line skates, they would use that. I don't think the bikes and the skateboards would use that. We can look at that.

Joe R: What is the timeline for this? (By 4/23 some members respond)

Ed Testino: Rich, would you mind seconding my table.

Richard Greene: I would definitely second it.

Joe C: Paul, are you willing to draft a letter.

Paul: I am willing to do a first draft of the letter. I think Joe's point, getting back together to finalize it, if that's what necessary, then that's fine. I think we can expedite it by me drafting it and sending it out across e-mail, and saying I will be more than welcome for your comments.

Dennis: You have four people who don't have e-mail addresses, they will not get a copy of it. You have everyone's phone number. Why can't we just make calls and arrange for a date for everyone to meet. Unless I know the person on my e-mail, I delete it. I don't trust anybody.

Joe C: Pick a date right now that you can get together to finish the letter. Then you won't have to call everybody.

Gerard mentions to Paul to send out his e-mail, and for those who do not respond, Paul can call them. Paul mentions to meet in a week to give people time for revisions. Everyone agrees to meet on April 9th.

CAPITAL PROJECT UPDATE
Tom:
1. The good news on the two Higgins projects is that we are moving along on both of them.
The contractor on the parking lot was out at Higgins today and it should be completed in two to three weeks. The contractor on the other project is mobilizing and should be under way sometime next week. We got the case resolved with the MUA Fees and our attorney, Bill Ruggierio worked out a compromise that the Council has accepted with Tarheel Enterprises, the contractor for the parking lot.

2. The Civic Center Renovation: We'll take you down in the next meeting or two to see how that's coming. It will be a beautiful addition and the contractor is doing a beautiful job.

3. The Queen Yacenda Tract: We have an engineering company doing a small survey and a triangle piece of property that approx. 300 ft by 200 ft. which we will purchase from Perth Amboy from Mayor Vas We have a huge agreement with he's amiable to. We will include all the long term leases for the little league and football complex and this piece of property will allow us to line up the entrance way to the park with the Owens Rd. interchange where there will be a light. Obviously in a park that size we will want to align the property up with a traffic light rather than just having people going out onto Rt. 516. This survey should be done in another week and then Bill Ruggierio has all the other information ready, and once he has that it will be sent to Perth Amboy for them to ratify and back to us to ratify. Paul asks if this small piece will be leased. Tom explains that this will be purchased, but field will be leased. Up to this point it has just been a verbal agreement, with it in writing it will give the little league and football organization a little more comfort and security. The Mayor asks Denis what the deal is with the parking. Denis explains he keeps sending form letter.

4. Health Dept. - Will be in construction soon.

5. Laurence Harbor Bldg. - Will be in construction soon. This is basically just a drainage issue, which entails lifting the building up a little. Next year we will do the interior

6. Laurence Harbor Senior Center - Will be in construction soon

PROGRAM UPDATE

Barbara: The Mat Rat Season ended on a successful note. We had the dinner at the Civic Center and 218 people were in attendance. It was nice having the dinner at the Civic Center considering our home matches are here. I believe it was enjoyed by all.

The spring programs are running and I have attached a participation report so you have a general idea of what we are running and what kind of numbers we are getting.

The summer brochure went to print today. It should be on the web page soon.

We added some new programming to the summer. We added an additional sports camp, which will be a girl's soccer camp run by our girls varsity coach of the high school.

The Robin Update from Pete Pero is in your packet. Michael Gordon, represented Old Bridge in Anchorage Alaska and took a gold medal in the 800 meter, he took a silver in the 300 meter and a fifth place in the 500 meter. Our reception for him will be at Camp Robin on Wed. April 18th.

We are running our Father Daughter Dance again this year. It was very successful last year and we expect it to be this year again.

Tom: The other thing I want to be mentioned under the programs which is significant and terrific. As you know we've enlisted John Piccolo's services to work with us and he has developed a very successful ice skating program at the Arena where he has upwards of 110 kids. The beauty of this is that the vast majority are residents (about 90%) and this is on the heels of the Old Bridge Wings left us high and dry. The good news on top of that is that John and I met today to go over next year's schedule. We will have four Junior Knights teams next year, which is only 1 less than the Wings had when they left us. That is a tremendous turn around. I want to compliment John and everyone for hanging in there with this thing. The beauty of this is it feeds the high school program and it is primarily made up of Old Bridge residents. John is doing a terrific job. (Denis agrees, his kids are in the program)

Joe C: Last year some of the comments I got from the children in the baseball camp is that they'd like to see it again. It is the first week after they get out of school, they want to know if you could run a second session.

Tom: I think it just depends on if Barbara can get the coaches. We could check.

Barbara: Like all the programs that we run, it's just contingent on the instructors and coaches availability. They have other commitments elsewhere.

Tom: Sometimes it's harder to get the coaches back when you skip weeks, rather than doing back-to-back weeks.

Joe C: I know Kevin came by and he's involved with the EDC. He wanted to possibly within the next 7-10 days we can get together with some people on this committee and talk about or brainstorm on possibilities of how he could possibly attract people to the Birch Hill complex. Are there people in this room that are willing to partner with the EDC or want to be on that subcommittee I can pass along those names.

Gerard: I am not clear as to the purpose. We already dealt with the idea already over here in our committee as to what we thought about the facility. And we came up with a response to that, that we really didn't think it was anything that our recreation program be involved with. We kicked it back to the council with the recommendation that, since it came from the Council president, saying that this is better with the EDC.

Joe C: That is correct.

Gerard: Why are we trying to involve ourselves?

Joe C: We're not. The EDC, or Kevin Calogera, came over to us and said to me he'd like to have at least some people that are on the Recreation Advisory Committee who have more knowledge in this area of what we think would be the way to pursue this. Is it a good sport type facility? He doesn't know these things. So he would like to have people from this committee kind of have a brainstorming session with him. Give him some ideas of what we think would be good so that he could go out and try to find a business partner.

Gerard: In other words, what our opinion would be on a privately held business should develop that property.

Joe C: Yes. What we think would be good ideas.

Joe R: What you are saying is that you are not looking for a recreation committee recommendation, but just people to work with him. If they happen to be on this committee, they might know a little more about recreation.

Joe C: Exactly

Gerard: It's not a subcommittee of the recreation committee, the recreation committee, as I understand it, as already dealt with this and as a committee we've already decided to pass it on to the private sector.

Joe C: Yes, they would like some help.

Gerard: I'll volunteer. As a citizen, not as a member of this committee.

Paul: I didn't realize I gave up my citizenship when I joined this committee.

Gerard: I'm not going to be acting on behalf of this committee, those opinions will be my own opinions and not representative of this committee.

Joe C: I will let Kevin Calogera know that Gerard and Joe are both interested in interfacing with them and helping them with ideas.

Paul brought up something about a survey that was done four years ago. I would like to resurrect a subcommittee of this committee to reevaluate those results and maybe look at if we should resurvey the community. We don't know when it was done,

Tom: That survey was not a general one, it was done particularly for the Rose Farm.

Joe C: We are looking for something more general. I think it would be valuable input for us and the council to know what people in general, we are only 13 eyes and ears, I would like to see some kind of a survey developed that we can survey the residents of the town feel. If it requires some financial support from the town, we have the councilmen here who can recommend calling in a firm to do this properly. I would like to create a subcommittee to start looking at a survey at some point, to gather data on the resident's feelings. I'm open to comments now.

Gerard: Paul, didn't you deal with something like this a couple of weeks ago? Didn't you have something with Joe R?

Paul: We had put together what we thought would be a questionnaire about the skate park specifically.

Gerard: I don't understand exactly what you mean. What it is you are looking for the committee to come up with. A questionnaire...

Joe C: I'm throwing out a survey of some sort, I'm not telling the committee on what it should be, but I'd like to have a means of getting some input from the people who live in town.

Paul: Didn't we have some of that last year captured through the task force? In there there was input, there was actually some meetings scheduled and some of the various presidents from the organizations were invited to it? To talk about what their needs were as an individual organization. Certainly, they are representative of the community as well. Data is good, but I don't know personally right now, maybe a subcommittee can take if off line and come up with a way, but to me an open ended, what are your recreational needs, what would you like to see here in the township, that could be all over the map. When you have a property like Rose Farm, there is a tangible piece of land, it right here on the map, if I recall that survey showed where it was in the town. As we get closer to putting Phases together with Queen Yacenda, maybe that's deserving of a questionnaire to the township residents.

Gerard: You are suggesting, Paul, something of a specific nature.

Paul: Tangible, the way its been done in the past.

Gerard: Joe, you are suggesting something a bit more nebulous.

Joe R: Again going back to the ordinance, I think earlier we talked about a master plan. I think we all agree that we better understand what it is, where we are going with this, I think we all understand there are parcels of land that are being acquired and things like that. I think if we are looking to advise on how some of this land should be used, we probably need some kind of mechanism for collecting input from the residents of the township as to have this land should be used, what's needed. I don't think I've seen a good mechanism yet for how we do that. What I'm reading into what Joe is saying is, why don't we get some people together to try and figure out how to gather that data, I don't know if there is any specific requirement to figure what do we do with Rose Farm right now, maybe in conjunction with an understanding of what we think that master plan is, we do need a mechanism.

Gerard: It's not a bad idea, but I think probably because we are getting way ahead of where we ought to be structurally. First we asked for the information going back a number of years from Tom as to what has been done. I would suggest to you that probably what we need to do is gather that information historically. Let's take a look at what has been done, take a look at where we are right now, so that we can then intelligently approach, we would have a better focus on what exactly what it is in terms of information that we are looking for. We want to be able to structure something that gets us information that reasonable and bonafiable and something that is applicable to where we are and where it is where we are going. I'd suggest we table that idea until after we get the historical information that we've asked for. Let's see where we were, we we've come, how we've done that, how long the process takes, what the mechanism has been, and then I think we would be in a much better position to move forward from that point. We should probably wait, it's a good idea whose time hasn't come yet.

Joe R: I'm not sure I agree with that. If we wait for all that other stuff to be lined up, it will be a year before we are in position to even start looking at how we collect that kind of data. So what I'm suggesting is maybe in parallel we start investigating mechanisms of getting that data, not actually going out and soliciting data, but trying to figure out how we go about doing that so that by the time we understand what the master plan is and where we've been an where we think we are going, then we can act immediately.

Gerard: So you are not necessarily suggesting something (mechanism) that's recreation specific. Because you were, then you would have to know where you are now and where you came from.

Joe R: No, what I'm suggesting is we figure out what the mechanism is to collect the data that we need to move forward. That's what I'm saying. I'm not suggesting we do a survey, a recreational survey, per say, what I'm suggesting is as a members of this committee who are empowered to investigate and study, we ought to investigate how we collect that data.

Joe C: That's where I was going.

Paul: Not to undermine what we did last year.

Joe C: Exactly. That's in addition to.

Paul: I think we reached out to all the organizations that we have on record. And we invited them to a meeting. And we said this is what the council is asking of us organizations, the sports organizations what our needs are. And we began to put all that stuff together.

Joe C: I think that is only the outer layer of the onion. We should be looking to dig deeper into that.

Joe R: If it turns out this is the best way to do this, then that's what we continue with.

Paul: Well I see it, and Gerard used the term nebulous, I don't necessarily want to call it nebulous, but I see it very much open ended. If we are going to solicit, what would you like here in the township from a recreational perspective, it will be all over the gamut the feedback. But when you can say we have a property and its now ours, we need to do something with it, then that's tangible. People can see and can say what they want. So to say what are we doing, what's is the taxpayers want to do, I would like to have a specific to ask them, not just open ended. They want a water park, indoor and outdoor pools, they want golf courses, they want rolling fields, but they don't want to spend money.

Mayor: I was telling Tom that I've gotten calls from people who want bike paths and jogging paths. In some ways it might help in terms of how we look at acquisitions. It doesn't necessarily have to be a big plot of land, it could be little strips that connect all up where you could put a bike path. But getting it in some kind of format would have some value.

Joe C: Once again, I think there's the need to gather data at times. I don't want this subcommittee right now to write a questionnaire. There are many firms out there, I don't see us even doing it, I would say if we are going to do a full fledge recreational needs survey of the town, we go to the council and tell them we need X amount of dollars to do this properly. Because if we are not going to do it properly, why do we bother doing it? That's where I am in my thought process. This sub committee would maybe looking into Nelson, which is a big firm that does surveys. I know the person that was on the Board of Education, Frank Racioppi, he works for them. I know here's a guy that is community minded, his kids play soccer, baseball and everything else. He would probably be more than willing to sit down with a small set of people. We could tap his mind pro quid.

Gerard: We discussed this a couple of meetings ago, and listen, I think it's a great idea, that in the township we have a reliable means to gather data from the community, but I don't see that as the responsibility of this committee. I see that as the responsibility of either the council or administration. I don't see how the gathering of information on a broad basis like that from the population is something that we ought to be focusing any of our energies on. I agree that its something an outside agency can handle. It is their business to gather data and develop these type of reports, I just don't see that that is really a productive use of the time of the Parks & Rec. Committee. In terms of developing questionnaires, or developing ways in which to gather data from the community as a whole.

Joe C: I don't see any department that will say they are going to do it.

Gerard: But it isn't specific to what a particular recreation need is. It's not specific to that, which I could at least justify us spending the time if it was specific to that particular use of a recreational facility.

END OF TAPE 2, SIDE A

Gerard: That's what either the elected officials should be hiring a firm that does that stuff or the administration or somebody ought to be doing something like that. It's a great idea, but I don't think that's us.

Joe C: I think we have the need, and unless the Mayor or the councilmen say they are going to do that..

Paul: If I may, what is the need? I don't want to sound too ignorant. I have no idea where we are going with this.

Joe D: As a relatively new member, here's what I get out of this. I have three boys in town, and I'm limited around my three kids. I don't know what everyone else in town wants. I'm 42 years old, I'm not sure what the women, senior citizens want. I'm not sure what families with all girls want. So I'd like to know what everyone else in town wants to do. The bicycle path is a good example. I would never think of that. I would never bring that to the table. As a new member, I don't think it's a bad idea to put out a survey and ask what people want. We've done so much in the last ten years. I've been here 30 year, and we've done more in the last ten years. I'd like to know what the next step is. I personally want to know if people want bike paths, pools, baseball fields, football field, outside roller hockey rink. What is the consensus of everyone else? I know what I want, more baseball fields, more soccer fields, more basketball courts.

Paul: Maybe the subcommittee is the best way to go at this point, but just to those exact questions, I would say the answer is Yes, Yes, Yes. When you ask those questions, part of that has to be who is going to pay for it? Do we have an area in mind to put these, who would not say that they want to improve the recreational facilities in any area? I think the answer is yes.

Joe D: Is there a walkway for someone to walk around town instead of walking around the track.

Paul: No, and that is a good need.

Joe D: Well, let's find out. Maybe there's only ten people in town that want that. I'm just curious what other people want.

Paul: Maybe the subcommittee is the way to go.

Joe D: Another thing, I don't think people know what's in town. I think the survey should say what we have. I'll give you an example. Up to two years ago, no one thought of having a skate park.

(It is mentioned that park areas, facilities and leagues are listed in the Department's brochure. Also, anybody can get information by phone.)

Gerard: How that came about is that the kids approached council and asked for it. (Gerard gives the history of how it came about) there are people out there that will always complain. If there is a real need, a real desire, then it comes to the forefront. When Jamie O'Kane was on this board, and he lives in Central Park, he had people asking him all the time for things because they knew he was on the committee. And we discussed these things at these committee meetings. This is how things are done. It is our responsibility as members of this committee to go out and represent our community. The council is supposed to put people that are representative of the community, we are supposed to come back in here and tell them what we need and want. Tom develops the plans, he goes to the council, and tries to sell it and get the money and then go forward. Look how active all of us were in getting that tax through for getting matching funds for open space. Ed came in here and explained how it worked. The State wouldn't give us a penny unless we opened up our own account. This is something we had to do going forward. We went out as a committee and spoke to people and told them how important it was to vote and pass Open Space. We were successful in getting the message out that way.

(The Mayor exits a 10:05 PM)

Joe R: If you read the ordinance under Administration, powers and duties of the director, (read out loud by Joe) that contrast from what we read earlier about the responsibilities of the committee, we are supposed to investigate, study and advise matters of recreation. That's what we are talking about. Collecting information as it pertains to what the people in the township want in recreational facilities in this township. The reason I bring that up is simply because that is the quandary we are in. I'm glad we have councilmen here. We need information, and if we want to investigate and study and make recommendations, it's pretty clear. You can't do it without that.

Paul: I agree, but I really think that unless you have something more specific, it is too open ended.

Joe R: I'm not arguing about whether it should be specific. What I'm saying is I think there needs to be something done so we can gather information as it regards to the citizen's desires in terms of recreation. I don't care if Tom does that study, I don't care if the council commissions a study, and I don't care if the recreational committee can commission the study, but someone ought to be doing that.

Paul: And I asked Joe the question earlier and I'll ask you or anybody else here. What do we see at present as a short-term immediate need that we need to solicit from the taxpayers. What is the specific issue?

Janet: I don't think its so much about an issue, I think he's saying as a committee each time we have an issue, we should already have in place a way to go about doing it. Not that right now we are going to do a survey, but when we have the issue instead of talking for three hours, we could set things in motion and we know what we are going to do next.

Joe C: Put a process in place.

Joe R: I think the suggestion is let's try to put something in place so that when we are looking for information, we have some idea of how we are going to get it.

Gerard: That's fine too. But we are supposed to be representatives of the community. I don't know if the every time the council makes a decision on something, that they contact every single person in town.

Ed Testino: It's done different all over the state. I know in South Brunswick, they do more surveys than in any other town council. It depends on what the issue is and how controversial it is. There is probably a need for information, and probably a need for a group bigger than yours to get it. But you have to do what the library board did. They were having all these problems and didn't know where they were going with the library. The board recommended that we do a study when you do that recommendation, Tom will either agree or disagree, and he will try to put it into capital projects for a study down the road. It will take a couple of years to trickle up. It may only be $20,000. The library spent $20,000 so they could get a benchmark to get going. If that's what you are looking for, that is something you will have to do through Tom. I think Gerard is right, it is much bigger than your committee. I also think that something you are alluding to is maybe we need a mechanism in place as to how you reach out and filter down and reach back up. Part of what Gerard is saying is true, we are the instruments, do you need the other instruments like the President's of the sports leagues. Maybe you need to call them in once in a while. The library came at us three or four times for that study.

Denis: I think that's a good idea. Have the town council get somebody to do a survey of the town, not just specifically for recreation. Whatever the town needs. (Denis discusses parking problems and how it pertains to the parking committee.)

Ed Testino: Areas like library and recreation are a little more specific. (Ed explains that certain areas of the country are more intensive in different sports than others). You would have to come as a group, if we are going to spend $20,000, we will need support for that.

Denis: I recommend as a recreation committee that this is something that we should do. Let's put forth that and have every other committee in town do the same thing. Each individual committee does it...

Ed T: You can't just do a blanket survey like that. You have to have a planner come in and you are talking about paying a company maybe $500,000...

Denis: I don't know, I thought it would be easier.

Ed T: If we have a committee that's ready to move forward on something, then we start scrambling to look for the money.

Gerard: So if we have an issue, if we had all this information that Tom's going to put together, and if we develop a common issue to go forward, then it makes sense to me if there is a focus to go forward to, to come and maybe solicit something.

Joe R: Some of what I heard in the past, you know Tom has repeatedly said that he is looking for us to give him some direction on use of things like Queen Yacenda and what should go in first. I just feel there are a couple of ways to do that. Again, one is to walk outside and talk to people, but there might be a better way. To determine what the township needs.

Ed T: We are all talking about active sports. There are a lot of people who want to see passive recreation. They'd rather see park benches than a football field.

Paul: Maybe this is where the professionals like Eagleton would help us. If we mail to entire tax base, maybe the percentages of 55 yrs. old plus respond 40% of the time, whereas us busy families don't have the time to reply. So you get back the results and think that the passive recreation is what the majority wanted. Well, that's not the majority, its only those who reply.

Joe C: They know how to interpret the data based on their experience.

Gerard: We need to focus on our issues.

Ed T: We don't need a survey to tell us we need green ways to link up our parks. If we get Rose up and running, we'll try and find a pathway to Geick. If you get the other piece on the other side of Cedar Ridge II, we want to link that up with a path lane. Then you start having passive walkways and bikeways that you can access the major green areas. Hopefully we'll have something to share from the environmental commission, because they are looking at some green ways.

Tom: This has probably been seven to eight years in the making the whole quadrant that makes up Ticetown Rd to Rt. 516 to Morganville Rd to Higgins Rd. That whole area has been looked at for years, putting all those properties together, which goes with the overall master plan and doing just what Ed is saying, trying to link up the parks this whole quadrant. When we build a linear park system, it is always with this in mind. That's me, the planner, open space, all these people help put this thing together.

Joe R: I know for myself, I clearly don't understand all the stuff that's going on there. As a member of this committee, I'd like to understand some more of that stuff. The kind of thing you run into is that somebody will say that the township is buying this piece of property and they feel its wasted and useless. I'd like to be able to give reasons. That's why this whole master plan issue keeps coming up.

Joe C: I threw out that I'd like to see, maybe this is something we have to throw out to the council, if just simply says we need a process to gather data from more than just these 13 people.
Ed T: I'm going to have to disagree. You can't just throw it to council.

Joe C: What I threw out was that I'd like to have a smaller group of people at least do a little research into this particular area. I see a lot of push back.

Joe D: I am definitely in favor of getting more information. I want more information. I want to know what other people want besides what we want and what I want.

Gerard: I agree with you. I just don't think its for this committee.

Joe R: It isn't necessarily a committee out of here that will commission the study. Maybe what comes out of here is we need a way to ask for a study. We need to find out how to get one done.

Joe C: Right.

Joe D: If we ask the presidents of the sports leagues, we know what they are going to want.

Joe C: Remember that woman who was on the committee a year and a half ago that wanted the ballroom dancing and big bands. We were focused on sports. We steered her to the cultural committee. I'm concerned that there's a lot more people like her.

Joe D: Tom, what do you think? Are we going in the wrong direction, should